Mecham - Have someone video you.
Try doing a few pole runs while imagining what DJ described.
Now try doing a few pole runs imagining the way Bubka did it.
Come back and tell us which way ended up looking better on the video.
BTB
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Mecham, not to put you on the spot, but off of what are you basing these statements that this is for sure not correct method to carry the pole. The human skeletal system can carry extremely large quantities of weight, whereas the muscles grow fatigued and fail. This would be one basis for the reason for carrying the pole palm up; you would be placing any weight of the pole on the skeleton, thus making the pole weight relatively little by comparison to carrying it using your muscles on the posterior of the forearm, and the muscles of the shoulder.
Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them-a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. - Muhammad Ali
Talent in cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.
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Talent in cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.
-Stephen King
Thank you for simplifying what I was attempting to get at.
Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them-a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. - Muhammad Ali
Talent in cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.
-Stephen King
Talent in cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.
-Stephen King
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Mecham wrote:all i am saying is during the plant and take off. To achieve what agapit describes, you cannot have your palm facing upwards
Dude, palm upwards is a CUE. Not an exact position. The pole should rest between the thumb and index finger of the left hand, with your left elbow pointing at approximately 7 o'oclock at the beginning of the approach, and the palm is facing somewhere between 1 and 2 o'clock. We say palm "up" to emphasize elbow lower than wrist, but it's not an exact statement. You're reading too much into it. As the pole is lowered in the last 6 steps of the run, the left elbow will raise to 8 o'clock with the left palm more at 3 o'clock(like looking at your watch), but as your hands pass above your head that left elbow will drop back in around 6:30 to 7 o'clock.
This is really starting to get annoying trying to explain this - find a video of Bubka where he's standing at his mark on the runway, picks the pole up off of the ground, and takes his initial step back to begin his approach - look at the angle of his left forearm. If you can't see what we're talking about, then consult an optometrist.
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We seem to have come a long way from the initial question - to the point where this should be set up as a separate topic - perhaps dj's model???
However before that is done I suggest that we would be well advised to understand and accept the Petrov/Bubka model. There are far more subtleties in it than is generally appreciated - especially with regard to the positioining and movement of the hands on the pole.
For myself, I am happy with this 'technical model' - and incidentally I am very pleased to see that term coming into general use instead of 'style - because I think that it provides the best solution for athletes at almost any level of performance and is not difficult to understand nor begin to master.
Before I deal with the issue of hand positions -which seems to have been the most recent direction this discussion has taken - much to poor old Mecham's distress, I would like to emphasise that -
A technical model is just that - a model. Bubka tried to replicate that model on every jump but inevitably every jump he took was different - if only slighly different. So even if you have seen 50 videos of him -thats all you have seen, because he took thousands of jumps you havent seen - but in every case although he was trying to replicate the model, there were variations. Even on his great 6.01/6.40? jump in Athens he was pretty untidy coming off the pole.
With the jump lasting 1.2 seconds from the time he left the ground, even a position held for 1/100th or even 1/1000 th of a second longer than usual will impact on the total jump, because of the sequential nature of the movements involved. So inevitably there are going to be variations. When did you last see a world class javelin thower dropping two spears into the same hole in competition - or even in training???
The other thing that must be remembered is that athletes can gradually alter/improve?? their technique so that what you see on a video may represent what they did five years previously. Someone mentioned Derek Miles's hand position - I believe that he has altered/improved that markedly in the past year.
Now to the apparently vexed question of the position of the hands. It seem to me that much of the discussion has not been able to see the woods for the trees!
The positioning and angle of the hands is often determined by - not the determinant of - other factors. At the start Bubka held the long pole almost vertically, if you do that the hands must automatically take up a position which allows the skeletal system rather than the musculature to absorb the weight of the pole. BTB Figure 6.3 That positioning lasted until the pole begins to slowly lower during the early phases of the run up so that after 8/10 steps the left hand inevitably is positioned on top of the pole - with the knuckles facing upwards. BTB Figure 6.6 The hand position is determined by the angle of the pole !! You cannot keep your left hand completely under the pole with the pole at a low angle - which is another reason why the pole angle should be kept high until 6 steps out. Bubka did not always do this.
Incidentally Tarasov did a better job of keeping the left hand in position if Figures22.2/22.3/22.4 are anything to go by!!
Now when he prepares to plant, he wants the left hand high to reduce the distance it has to move to get into position for take off - remembering that in his technical model the pole should be in position for take off BEFORE the left foot touches down. So at this point the left hand is moved up slighly to initially act as a fulcrum around which the pole rotates as the right hand moves up the right side in preparation for the plant. Again Tarasov Figure 22.6 BTB shows an excellent position - 1 1/2 steps from TO.
However he also wants to make only one movement with the left hand at this critical instant so he makes sure the hand is UNDER the pole when the movement starts so that it CAN be driven up in one rapid movement - not the two it would take if at that point the bottom hand is still over the top of the pole with the knuckles facing upwards. But again the efficient movement of the pole up into the plant determines the hand position and movement
The analogy I use here -perhaps not completely appropriate - is of a martial arts expert who wants use to use the heel of his left hand to kill his opponent by using it drive the opponents nose into his brain!
These movements and especially their timing are difficult to explain with mere words. However even when you watch video you must bear in mind the point made above that every jump by every athlete is going to be slightly different. Even more important you will tend to see - and hear - only what you want to see. "A man convinced against his will remains of the same opinion still"
However before that is done I suggest that we would be well advised to understand and accept the Petrov/Bubka model. There are far more subtleties in it than is generally appreciated - especially with regard to the positioining and movement of the hands on the pole.
For myself, I am happy with this 'technical model' - and incidentally I am very pleased to see that term coming into general use instead of 'style - because I think that it provides the best solution for athletes at almost any level of performance and is not difficult to understand nor begin to master.
Before I deal with the issue of hand positions -which seems to have been the most recent direction this discussion has taken - much to poor old Mecham's distress, I would like to emphasise that -
A technical model is just that - a model. Bubka tried to replicate that model on every jump but inevitably every jump he took was different - if only slighly different. So even if you have seen 50 videos of him -thats all you have seen, because he took thousands of jumps you havent seen - but in every case although he was trying to replicate the model, there were variations. Even on his great 6.01/6.40? jump in Athens he was pretty untidy coming off the pole.
With the jump lasting 1.2 seconds from the time he left the ground, even a position held for 1/100th or even 1/1000 th of a second longer than usual will impact on the total jump, because of the sequential nature of the movements involved. So inevitably there are going to be variations. When did you last see a world class javelin thower dropping two spears into the same hole in competition - or even in training???
The other thing that must be remembered is that athletes can gradually alter/improve?? their technique so that what you see on a video may represent what they did five years previously. Someone mentioned Derek Miles's hand position - I believe that he has altered/improved that markedly in the past year.
Now to the apparently vexed question of the position of the hands. It seem to me that much of the discussion has not been able to see the woods for the trees!
The positioning and angle of the hands is often determined by - not the determinant of - other factors. At the start Bubka held the long pole almost vertically, if you do that the hands must automatically take up a position which allows the skeletal system rather than the musculature to absorb the weight of the pole. BTB Figure 6.3 That positioning lasted until the pole begins to slowly lower during the early phases of the run up so that after 8/10 steps the left hand inevitably is positioned on top of the pole - with the knuckles facing upwards. BTB Figure 6.6 The hand position is determined by the angle of the pole !! You cannot keep your left hand completely under the pole with the pole at a low angle - which is another reason why the pole angle should be kept high until 6 steps out. Bubka did not always do this.
Incidentally Tarasov did a better job of keeping the left hand in position if Figures22.2/22.3/22.4 are anything to go by!!
Now when he prepares to plant, he wants the left hand high to reduce the distance it has to move to get into position for take off - remembering that in his technical model the pole should be in position for take off BEFORE the left foot touches down. So at this point the left hand is moved up slighly to initially act as a fulcrum around which the pole rotates as the right hand moves up the right side in preparation for the plant. Again Tarasov Figure 22.6 BTB shows an excellent position - 1 1/2 steps from TO.
However he also wants to make only one movement with the left hand at this critical instant so he makes sure the hand is UNDER the pole when the movement starts so that it CAN be driven up in one rapid movement - not the two it would take if at that point the bottom hand is still over the top of the pole with the knuckles facing upwards. But again the efficient movement of the pole up into the plant determines the hand position and movement
The analogy I use here -perhaps not completely appropriate - is of a martial arts expert who wants use to use the heel of his left hand to kill his opponent by using it drive the opponents nose into his brain!
These movements and especially their timing are difficult to explain with mere words. However even when you watch video you must bear in mind the point made above that every jump by every athlete is going to be slightly different. Even more important you will tend to see - and hear - only what you want to see. "A man convinced against his will remains of the same opinion still"
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
good morning
one of the points or "Q"s that pertrov was trying to make and i was trying to emphasize was the point of keeping the wrist higher than the elbow... which forces you to plant the pole in front and high.... this is the point that is important biomechanically.. by keeping the left wrist positioned this way you avoid a late, low plant and a "swinging" back and forth of the pole just before the plant...
dj
ps the only reason i was using the petrov info was to work from the same descriptions...and the "horses" mouth so to speak.. even though it is a BTB thread.
we can change to another thread if needed??? becca??
one of the points or "Q"s that pertrov was trying to make and i was trying to emphasize was the point of keeping the wrist higher than the elbow... which forces you to plant the pole in front and high.... this is the point that is important biomechanically.. by keeping the left wrist positioned this way you avoid a late, low plant and a "swinging" back and forth of the pole just before the plant...
dj
ps the only reason i was using the petrov info was to work from the same descriptions...and the "horses" mouth so to speak.. even though it is a BTB thread.
we can change to another thread if needed??? becca??
Come out of the back... Get your feet down... Plant big
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