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PVchick asks - .what do u think about planting(only straight poling) into the sand pit? is that a good or bad idea? .

PVchick - straight poling into a sand pit while gradually raising your grip to control your forward rotation -WHILE EMPHASISING A STRONG BODY AND COMPLETE EXTENSION OF THE TAKE OFF LEG AND ANKLE - from 2/4/6 steps only - is definitely the way to go. If you start gripping too high for safety in a sand pit - move to the box and pad and repeat off the short run. This way you learn to take off properly -which every sensible person who posts on this site will tell you is THE critical element of good vaulting - using your own energy, not that of someone pushing you through -who will not be there when you compete!

The tap is never needed if you are gripping at the right height for a specific run up. Just start with a low grip and gradually move it up -perhaps a hand grip at a time or 3 fingers/2fingers/1 finger. If you rotate forward quickly go up a hand grip then as the pole rotates slower move up only one finger until you know you are maxing out. Mark your grip height with a strong elastic band so you always know where you are. Measure the height you can get to off 6 steps and keep it as a record to improve each session. As it does so, your take off is improving.

Suggest to your new coach that they buy a copy of the "Beginner to Bubka" book. They will find many of the answers they need in there.

The tap is never needed if you are gripping at the right height for a specific run up.

I would say the tap would be also be unneeded if the trail leg (like you say) was not only completely extended but swung all the way through instead of curling into a ball like some do (i.e.: me). Obviously this can't be done into a sand pit as it would constitute landing on your head and neck or, in the case of a complete-mini vault ( plant, swing and rock, invert, pull and turn) on your feet/ back, which isn't good for you either.

Our coach (and he's a very good coach) does use the tap when we get a new pole. Or when the weather (wind) is whipping around. But he doesn't do it very often and only when we need it.

Myself, I don't like it because I feel him hitting me (well, not hit, but push) and I concentrate on that instead of my vault. But, he doesn't usually hit me so I have no big problems with it.

I can see improper taps given by lesser-experienced people resulting in injury or bad form, but like somebody already said, those unfamiliar with it generally avoid giving it.

I've never heard of this ramp before and have some questions on placement and other things. Should the highest end of the ramp be EXACTLY (+ or - 1 in) where the vaulter should take off, or should a wider range of margin be used? Would the plywood surface make spikes slip? Has the ever been any problem with it 'jumping' with the last quick step, or tipping at all?

thanks for the help..yup..i will tell him to buy the book. wether or not he will read it is another story..hes not the reading type..haha

i dont have a pole vault coach at my school so we are on
our own but last year in camp the coach did this thing
where we would plant and jump, not to high, and he would
hold us in place to give us the idea of what it should be like
the second after we leave the ground on our takeoff. honestly
i can't tell you if it helped or not but i'm always willing to
do anything that will help my vault.

LancerVaulter07 wrote: i'm always willing to
do anything that will help my vault.

The problem is that unless you get a better idea of what you sre trying to do -or should be trying to - it is difficult for you to work out what will help your vault.

Regarding the ramp...is the total height 3/4"? I am having a hard time visualizing it, does the incline slope up towards the pit or down towards the box? Is the theory of the ramp to increase the angle of the pole at the plant to get to vertical faster, or does it assit in the jump off the ground?

As far as taps go, I can go either way on the debate, thay can be helpful when you are trying a new pole for the first time, if for nothing else than for reassurance, but they are too easy to depend on which is trouble.

I do like the idea of a ramp though because I jump with the team I coach and I don't trust anyone to ever tap me, so I would like some way to get an extra edge when I am getting onto a larger pole.

Also, where can I get a piece of Mondo?

Lastly, Altius, enjoyed your book...I was a team mate of Simon's at the University of New Mexico.

Lastly, Altius, enjoyed your book...I was a team mate of Simon's at the University of New Mexico.[/quote]

Your cheque is in the mail! You should also get a bonus for putting up with 'The Ark' - how did you manage?

WILD topic The TAP and that is exactly what it is wild!
I see comments in this thread of;
if done correctly,
if done properly,
slight tap,
needed for transition???

A tap will be so inconsistent and so uncontrollable; one could provide an additional 25lbs to 50 lbs of force to a vaulting pole, risking eminent pole breakage on this jump or weaken the fibers of the pole for possible breaks on subsequent jumps.

No one can tell me they have control of a TAP.
It is a dangerous thing to practice! Far too many vaulter who are too flat at the take off would accomplish more by angling the take-off for better transition of energy into the vault.
The use of a TAP is crutch just like saying I need steroids to get on big poles.
Confessions of a Pole maker SMILE

PS We have noticed most vaulters who jump on larger poles than their weight do so from a power swing rather from crushing the pole.
Make note GUYS the women are using bigger poles than their weight due to a better swing.
A women’s center of gravity is in the hips when men’s is in the upper stomach.
We see top vaulters across the nation using poles 25 to 35 lbs over their weight and they do not need a TAP or steroids to do so. GRIN

ESSX wrote:We see top vaulters across the nation using poles 25 to 35 lbs over their weight and they do not need a TAP or steroids to do so. GRIN[/b][/color][/size]

Bruce -

I'm not sure I understand your arguments.

Are you saying elite women never take taps? I saw some top vaulters taking taps at a meet at SDSU last weekend. Competitors included Stacy Dragila, Tracy O'Hara, Mary Sauer, Lindsay Taylor and others. Immediately after that, Tye Harvey and Kurt Hanna were giving each other taps.


Maybe more to your point: as you well know, a 14' 150 is not the same as a 16' 150. most elite women jump on poles heavier than their weight because they can't grip up on longer poles. For instance, I weigh 185lb and jump on a 16'195 usually - i.e 10lbs over my weight. If i jumped on a 14' pole instead of a 16', the equiavalent grip would put me on a 14' 215lb, or 30 lbs over my weight. Therefore, as has been argued before, the "weight" ratings on poles are ambiguous and don't translate between pole lengths.

As far as consistency in tapping goes, yes, it is hard for a human to deliver a consistent vector (i.e. force, impulse, and direction in space). However, of course you do have some element of control. How much is enough? Consider that your agrument could be applied to vaulting itself - i.e. pole vaulting is dangerous and no one should do it because the vectors during the takeoff aren't consistent from jump to jump. It could be applied to driving a car too - that's dangerous if you apply the wrong vector to the pedals, but of course most of can regulate enough control over the vectors to make that effective from day to day.

I also don't agree that just telling a vaulter to "improve your angle of takeoff." Most athletes don't have the kind of mental and physical control to immediately implement suggestions like that.

Creed

As I have noted earlier "A man convinced against his will remains of the same opinion still". If the logic of the argument aganst the tap does not override the fact that 'many athletes still do it', what chance have we got.

Coach Stary uses the analogy of driving a car - does that mean that because a lot of drivers - including Nascar and Formula One drivers - do stupid things, the rest of us should drive stupidly.

Keep on tapping - and watch the athletes drop in the box when they dont get one.

altius wrote:As I have noted earlier "A man convinced against his will remains of the same opinion still". If the logic of the argument aganst the tap does not override the fact that 'many athletes still do it', what chance have we got.

Coach Stary uses the analogy of driving a car - does that mean that because a lot of drivers - including Nascar and Formula One drivers - do stupid things, the rest of us should drive stupidly.

Keep on tapping - and watch the athletes drop in the box when they dont get one.

Altius - I think I've addressed each agrument that's been presented. Go back and read through my posts carefully if you are so concerned about my judgement - I've laid all my thoughts on the line and they are each open to debate - let me know when you want to debate them. But I guess you get to end the debate here because you co-authored a pole vault book and have 158 posts (many of which are pushing your book) in the two months you've been a member??? I am more impressed with substantiated arguments than your credentials.

I am also still wed to my point because of experience, not because I refuse to accept any "logic of arguments." I've personally succeeded in my training getting the occasional tap (pr 5.20m), and I have implemented them effectively as a coaching tool for my athletes under certain circumstances. Neither myself nor my athletes "drop in the box without them."

My indication that some elite athletes use taps was in response to Bruce's claim that women don't take taps. I think that is a valid response to his claim - do you disagree?

My car analogy was in response to Bruce's claim that humans have no consistent control over the force they can exert in the context of giving a tap. I don't think you've addressed the gist of my response to him - you've only come up with a seperate analogy having to do with cars . . . .

Give taps or don't give taps - I don't really care. I just don't want my right to give them taken away by regulation Fascists - we're lucky we don't all have to wear helmets.

I think I've said my piece - I'll go back to lurking for a few more years now that I see how threads on this forum so easily get co-opted by so few.

Creed

I'm going to chime in and agree with Creed here.

I think he sees a tap *exactly* like others see the the ramp: a tool that should be used to increase confidence temporarily (until the confidence comes from within). If it becomes a crutch, you're not ready for that pole.

An athlete can just as easily become dependent upon the ramp as they can a tap.

I also explicitly tell my kids that I will ONLY tap them if I see something wrong in their jump as they approach, in order to save them from landing in the box. If they're hittin their marks and are in a good position, I dont bother touching them, and they roll the pole over just fine.

This 'use' I would say is closer to a spot than a tap - I'm there if you need me, but I dont plan on being needed, cause I think you're ready for this. Just like spotting in gymnastics. A good coach knows the athlete is ready, but sometimes the athlete is a bit fearful, and may revert to older, bad technique as a comfort thing. Coach will (and should!) spot the kid from landing on his/her head. But if they got it, coach sees this on the fly, and doesnt need to touch them at all. The kid gets confidence from knowing they just did it w/o the assistance.

Along those lines, I'll rebuttle Bruce's comment about variable force:
I can vary my push on purpose, and I do as I see the vaulter hitting proper (or improper) positions. Pits nowadays are big enough to if a person can increase a vaulters forward momentum SO much with a single arm thrust they can throw a vaulter off the end of a pit.. either that coach is a world class weight lifter (and has a 100lb vaulter), or the vaulter is on a pole they should NOT be getting a tap with.
A tap doesnt mean pushing as hard as humanly possible.

Again, its a tool. If a vaulter *needs* a tap, its a crutch, and thats wrong (and bad coaching).