Sand Vaulting

[KirkB]

I watched all these vids, and read all the comments by these self-professed pundits ...

... None of these are executed what I would call 'well', though... not a single one stays behind the pole!

... he loses his hips pretty fast after takeoff

... keeping her hips behind the pole

... video 1 displays vaulters not staying behind the pole ( practicing bad technique).

The main difference is the bottom arm, in video 3 both hands are together over his head.
It is impossable to stay behind the pole with that technique.
In Video 1, you can see the bottom arm collapse mainly due to the speed they are trying to perform this drill at.
Video 2 you will see some good technque, staying behind the pole, three left run up and holding high on the poles( not runnung through the pole).

As I highlighted, each of these posters seems to be emphasizing the importance of "staying behind the pole". While I agree that the OUTCOME of a good VAULT is that your hips will stay behind the pole for quite some time (the consequence of a good high plant and "elastic" takeoff to an inverted-C), I don't see why this is an objective of this drill. Isn't the objective just to PLANT and TAKEOFF properly? Isn't the drill over as soon as those 2 things happen? If so, why the emphasis on "staying behind the pole"?

Perhaps my confusion is that when I read "stay behind the pole" I take that as "prevent the body from swinging ... by applying pressure with the bottom arm". If you mean "stay behind the pole" by an elastic stretching action, then I whole-heartedly agree ... but not if you mean by resistance with the bottom arm. There's a HUGE difference between these 2 ... and I don't even think that this is the right drill to teach/learn this. About all you can and should do in this drill once you PLANT and TAKEOFF (my opinion only) is to BEGIN to SWING NATURALLY ... from the TOP HAND ONLY. (You will find that your swing is stopped by the bottom arm hitting the pole ... so you can never FINISH your swing past the chord.)

Of these vids, I think Isi does this best. This is why I like vid 3 better than vids 1-2. With a closed grip, you can't possibly get confused on the purpose of the drill, by inadvertently pushing (resisting) with the bottom arm.

To be fair, I know that Kyle and PP are fully aware of the trap of bottom arm pressure ... but perhaps Randall isn't. He's the only one that specifically mentions that "collapsing of the bottom arm" is bad. In this sand drill ... unless your grip is closed ... you MUST collapse the bottom arm. There should be NO INTENT to bend the pole or "stay behind the pole with bottom arm pressure" in this drill. Right?

Teach them how to run and PLANT with this “sand” drill..

Teach them how to swing on the high bar…

This is the only post that I agree with (not that I'm any expert re sand vaulting ... I"m ASKING).

DJ, do you agree that you should also include the TAKEOFF vault part in this drill, but NOT the SWING part?

I also like this quote:

OK watch the sand vaulting from 10:15-11:25, particularly the ones where she is not swinging.

RG, I think you are correctly emphasizing that the best ones EXCLUDE the swing. When the vaulter swings, they tend to lose some of the good PLANT/TAKEOFF technique that sand vaulting's good for.

Butler mentions that they're vaulting for distance when they swing ... which I don't think is such a great idea ... other than to keep things interesting for competitive-minded vaulters ... as it diverts the vaulters' attention from the real purpose of the sand drills.

The best quote by Butler in that sequence is:

... try to get the vaulter to release the pressure of the left hand ...

Also, notice the fairly closed grip ... which reinforces the idea that the bottom arm should not apply any pressure (it CAN'T if it's closed).

Kirk

[dj]

hey

RUN-PLANT-TAKEOFF-"HANG" ONLY ... RELAX THE ARMS..

I gave you my sequence... for the book i never wrote.....


Teach them how to run by approach runs on the track…

Teach them how to run and PLANT with this “sand” drill..

Teach them how to swing on the high bar…

Teach them how to RUN… PLANT….SWING with a stiff pole 360 “pop-up” into the pit… Bubba can give you video of that one...

Do them in ORDER and at an 8 or 9 level of perfection (same as you would teach gymnastic skills...and DO NOT move to the next exercise until that level is reached.

If you do these “simple” exercises to perfection you will have great pole vaulters…

dj

[KYLE ELLIS]

Self professed pundits, that is funny kirk.
I said the person in the last video loses their hips fast.

"About all you can and should do in this drill once you PLANT and TAKEOFF (my opinion only) is to BEGIN to SWING NATURALLY ... from the TOP HAND ONLY."

You are correct, but when you tense at the shoulders your body will break and your hips will swing forward. If you do this drill correctly you should reach a fully extended position, top arm behind, trail leg back, and big chest pushing through (aka finishing the takeoff) on this is done you want to continue extending up with the top arm, the pole should hit your chest in the middle of your body allowing you to stay behind the pole all the way into the pit. Of course this wouldn't happen in a real vault, but thats the drill. Watch coach Butlers video again.

What I see is the vaulter that didn't do it right didn't finish his takeoff and then tensed at the shoulders soon after, which ISN'T WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. Rather you want to do the exact opposite. I have shown all of you guys the secret to the swing that coach Butler taught me last summer.He learned it from Petrov himself, but it seems like many continue to ignore it... Maybe its too difficult to grasp. Even though its so obvious in many of the worlds best vaulter's jumps.

[rainbowgirl28]

Kirk, you are correct that staying behind the pole is the result of a good plant and takeoff. However, it seems like most beginning and intermediate vaulters think they have a good plant and takeoff, yet cannot stay behind the pole. If you can't stay behind the pole, you do not have a good plant and takeoff, so it is important to emphasize it for this drill.

You're definitely incorrect in assuming that staying behind the pole = pressure with the bottom arm, I think you're reading too much into things.

As I've said before, I think you would benefit greatly from spending time at your local high school and coaching kids in person, not just coaching from behind a computer screen.

[KirkB]

Kirk, you are correct that staying behind the pole is the result of a good plant and takeoff. ...

You're definitely incorrect in assuming that staying behind the pole = pressure with the bottom arm, I think you're reading too much into things. ...

No, RG, I'm not reading too much into this. Rather, I'm clarifying the difference between a GOOD way to stay behind the pole, and a BAD way. Randall specifically said:

The main difference is the bottom arm, in video 3 both hands are together over his head.
It is impossable to stay behind the pole with that technique.
In Video 1, you can see the bottom arm collapse mainly due to the speed they are trying to perform this drill at. ...

To spell it out more clearly, he's saying that you can't "stay behind the pole" with a closed grip. Rather, he's implying that you MUST have an open grip to "stay behind the pole". That's just WRONG!

Then he points out the "bottom arm collapse" in Vid 1 ... implying that that's bad technique. NOT!

Kyle has it right ... as I suspected ...

... You are correct, but when you tense at the shoulders your body will break and your hips will swing forward. If you do this drill correctly you should reach a fully extended position, top arm behind, trail leg back, and big chest pushing through (aka finishing the takeoff) on this is done you want to continue extending up with the top arm, the pole should hit your chest in the middle of your body allowing you to stay behind the pole all the way into the pit. Of course this wouldn't happen in a real vault, but thats the drill. Watch coach Butlers video again.

... the secret to the swing that coach Butler taught me last summer.He learned it from Petrov himself ...

I'm willing to bet that PP also has this right.

I DON'T think that Randall has this right ... and that's whose comments triggered my post. I agree 100% with Kyle's quote above ... I just needed him to clarify that it had NOTHING to do with any bottom arm pressure. Butler is very specific about that in his vid, and I concur.

RG, need I remind you that the way Kyle described this is almost EXACTLY the way I did it with my Bryde Bend technique?

... If you do this drill correctly you should reach a fully extended position, top arm behind, trail leg back, and big chest pushing through (aka finishing the takeoff) ...

The only diffference was that I stretched my trail leg back further than anyone else.

Kirk

[kcvault]

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/polevault/photo.htm

I am confused to where everyone thinks the hips should be and were they should remain during the vault. If you were to view the link of the sequence of the vault I posted above you would notice that during the swing phase the hips never come in front of the pole. Also they stay low as long as possible to create a long powerful swing. If you were to swing your hips in front of the pole at any point during the vault naturally your feet would drop, the swing of the trail leg would be imposible because you lost your pivot point, you would kill pole speed, and never get inverted. Notice in this sequence the the hips never come in front of the pole until the vaulter has swung all the way the way back and as he kicks up is the only time his hips ever come in front of the pole. Therefor I dont understand why it would be a bad thing to emphasize keeping the hips behind the pole since you have to do so in order to swing. (there is probably a better sequence to illustrate this but this is the best one I can find.)

[KirkB]

I am confused to where everyone thinks the hips should be and were they should remain during the vault.

The hips should stay behind the chord of the pole until the pole reaches "nearly full bend". If you think of the hips as being close to the CoM, it should be apparent that as soon as they pass the pole (i.e. the chord of the pole), then the downswing part of the vault is over, thus the ability to apply any SIGNIFICANT additional force to the vaulter/pole system is over. (You can apply SOME additional force by a vigorous extension.)

It's a rather odd question to ask where the hips "should remain". This seems to imply that they shouldn't continue to MOVE ... onwards and upwards ... in a continuous chain of motion.

The real question (in this thread, at least) is HOW to keep the hips behind the pole (the chord of the pole).

In a SAND vault, you do this exactly as Kyle explained, by stretching the chest forwards/upwards whilst stretching the trail leg backwards. This gives you your best starting point for the downswing. In a SAND vault, you should NOT keep the hips behind the pole by pressing with the bottom arm. That would be futile ...especially considering that the pole is not expected to bend in this drill.

In a REAL vault, it's ALSO exactly the same as Kyle explained. If you press with the bottom arm, you might keep your hips behind the pole (a good thing), but at the cost of slowing down your swing tremendously (a bad thing).

... If you were to view the link of the sequence of the vault I posted above you would notice that during the swing phase the hips never come in front of the pole. ...

I don't know why you chose Tarpenning to demonstrate your point. His hips DO stay behind the pole, but he does it by straight-arming his bottom arm (a bad thing). As the commentor states, still pics don't show the ACTION of the vault very well, so I found this vid of Tarpenning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKlLlyxP9NU). It's only 5.62 (his PR is 5.89), but he does show better technique than in the still pics. This vid is the only one of him on youtube ... and happens to have been published just a couple weeks ago.

Anyway, you can see his 5.62 jump between 2:20-3:41. At 3:24, take a look at how straight his bottom arm is. There's no doubt that this is caused by bottom arm pressure. And there's no doubt ... in my mind at least ... that this straight-arming is killing his swing.

For his technique, it seemed to get him over 5.89, but it's not Petrov, and it's sub-optimal IMHO. Think of all the forwards and angular momentum that he loses by holding his trail leg back like that. Compare that to Bubka (in the same vid, or any of his other vids), and you'll see a significant difference in their "continuous chain of motion".

Incidentally, in the 1980 Moscow Olympics vids that RG just posted today (http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=18629), you can clearly see that Kozakiewicz doesn't apply any pressure with his bottom arm either.

Ah ... if Tarpenning had only sand-vaulted!

Kirk

[kcvault]

I tried to find a photo sequence of Bubka because he would have illustrated the point I was making alot better. What I mean by keeping the hips behind the pole is keeping the hips behind the bend of the pole which I belive you call the chord of the pole. My point is that as the body swings to an L seat the hips should stay low, they should not begin to rise until after the L position has been met, then as the vaulter continous to swing all the way up the hips rise but they still stay behind the chord of the pole, until the kick up, or exstention. My point is that the hips need to be behind the pole and low for the first half the swing in order to swing properly. Basically saying swing around your hips using your trail leg as a lever, dont swing with your hips and take your trail leg out of the equation. Also I belive bottom arm pressure would make what I am saying much more difficult, and body position should be what is ephasized.

[KYLE ELLIS]

I tried to find a photo sequence of Bubka because he would have illustrated the point I was making alot better. What I mean by keeping the hips behind the pole is keeping the hips behind the bend of the pole which I belive you call the chord of the pole. My point is that as the body swings to an L seat the hips should stay low, they should not begin to rise until after the L position has been met, then as the vaulter continous to swing all the way up the hips rise but they still stay behind the chord of the pole, until the kick up, or exstention. My point is that the hips need to be behind the pole and low for the first half the swing in order to swing properly. Basically saying swing around your hips using your trail leg as a lever, dont swing with your hips and take your trail leg out of the equation. Also I belive bottom arm pressure would make what I am saying much more difficult, and body position should be what is ephasized.

Actually the chord of the pole is if you drew an imaginarey straight line from the top hand to the pole tip (in the box). And my personal view on the swing is you should try to swing the hips, and should never focus on swinging the trail leg. You should be driving your hips forward during the takeoff phase, and with the correct takeoff point and takeoff mechanics your hips will stay under the body until the top arm and trail leg extend fully; the body will be in the C-position causing a stretch reflex. Then the vaulter swings a straight body creating centrifugal forces, rather than breaking at the hips because they swing their trail leg and contracting their abs. The vaulter should attempt to swing a straight body but the trail leg will always beat the hips tp the vertical plane.

[baggettpv]

Geez..... Listen to Becca. And quit looking at individuals for a demonstration of perfect or sublime technique. I have found fault in everything except what I see in my mind.
Kory could jump up like no one before so he could never swing fast enough to catch the pole. Wasn't fast enough to hold high enough to match his jump angle. I was with his coach from 85 til 91 with alot of discussions about Kory about this.
Now think about that! It's balance, balance, balance of everything invovled.

Till next time,

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[Pogo Stick]

I tried to find a photo sequence of Bubka because he would have illustrated the point I was making alot better.

I uploaded one nice photosequence for you with comment by Maurice Houvion:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TJ3IP9RG

By the way, Houvion was also coach of Kory Tarpenning.

[dj]

hey

Kory could jump up like no one before so he could never swing fast enough to catch the pole. Wasn't fast enough to hold high enough to match his jump angle.

very important point and this should be considered when we talk about takeoff angle and amount of pole bend...

dj