What is in your wallet Carbon a waste of $ for small poles

Bruce Caldwell · Unread postby **Bruce Caldwell** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:09 am

I put this in the sales forum as this might be consider advertising.
ANd of course as always personal observation and opinion.

We had 2 carbons come in this week for a coach to get poles in between

I took it upon myselt to weigh one without pole tip and no extra tape on it.
A 22.3 flex 13'6" 140 lbs and 145
one weighed 3.lbs. 4 oz.
the other 3lbs. 6oz.

SO I then took right off my shelf a " E" and "S" to see just how light the Carbons really are?

MY off the shelf poles
ESSX 41567X (13'7" 147.4 lbs) 22.5 flex weighed 3lbs 7oz.
and a ESSX 41564X (13'7" 140.8 lbs.)22.9 flex weighed 3 lbs 5 oz.

OK Carbons are lighter LOL
Spend more $ to get a 1 ounce lighter pole????
Wonder how much "S" glass is in those Carbons or is it all "E" glass and 1 wrap of carbon?

Bruce Caldwell just my thoughts

Unread postby **rainbowgirl28** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:41 am

The old short (13', 13'6) Mystic Carbons were not that much lighter than a Pacer pole in the same length. They were only lighter than regular Mystics because they make Mystics on smaller mandrels which equals a heavier carry weight.

The new carbon weaves really do make a big difference though. I had a 13'135 mystic carbon weave and the carry weight felt considerably lighter than my 12'6" Pacers.

I didn't need it though, so I gave it to my former teammate that has no poles at her new school. My 12'6" poles aren't really heavy enough to justify getting carbons

USMC Vaulter · Unread postby **USMC Vaulter** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:24 am

Dont carbons also provide a faster/stronger recoil?
Wouldnt that be another reason to consider spending the extra 11 bucks?

lonestar · Unread postby **lonestar** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:18 am

USMC Vaulter wrote:Dont carbons also provide a faster/stronger recoil?
Wouldnt that be another reason to consider spending the extra 11 bucks?

Rumor has it. I think it's more of an urban legend though. A pole is going to recoil as fast as how stiff it is no matter what it's made of IMHO. The benefit of carbon is the lighter weight of the pole.

Bruce Caldwell · Unread postby **Bruce Caldwell** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:56 am

USMC Vaulter wrote:Dont carbons also provide a faster/stronger recoil?
Wouldnt that be another reason to consider spending the extra 11 bucks?

Carbon Orientated in the zero axis with the fiber aligned the length of the pole makes the whole pole stiffer especially the ends. This is the same concept in building all their other non-carbon poles stiff tops forcing the vaulter to really have to jump and hang or drive the back of the box to bend over a pole. It is just the action is increased more with carbon having a 4 to 1 ratio of stiffness to S glass.

ONE Carbon manufacturer uses 1 carbon wrap of spiral and one the axis of the pole.
This increases the potential load and also the memory and the pole has other pattern characteristics that add to the recoil. They think as most that a fast pole is the best one to throw you high in the air! Even their test prove this when they load a weight to the top of the pole and it is thrown higher than any other brand.

SO you have these poles that throw you very high in the air, some recoil so fast athletes are in the bucket and cannot get out because the pole recoils too fast. High school kids are learning poor technique because they are forced to execute a premature pull to stay up with these poles.
I frankly believe after making such a set for a top vaulter once remember him saying they where the best poles in the World but superman is the only one who can keep up with the recoil.
Can you make me a set so I can go back to the double pendulum and time with the pole to not only jump high but not have to VOLZ the bar with my hand , come down on the bar after clearing it by 2 feet or snake over, just so I can have penetration over the bar too?. When we did make the new set, he bent the pole very little and jumped 19'+ more consistantly than any other vaulter and was labelled Mr Consistant for 3 years. Back in 1987-88-89.

That is what we have done, made a pole that stays stiff in the box to keep the pole from bending into the pit and one that allows the vaulter to roll the pole
If you turn the carbon to dampen its stiffness in a spiral the pole then acts like a spring
SO our carbon poles maintain the stiffness needed in the butt and center and allow the pole to bend over like a spring. To do such a thing one must engineer angles in the pole
(QUADRA HELIX) so the carbon replaces other types of class with a 4 to 1 ratio and provide additional hoop and stiffness without altering the timing and natural pendulum of the pole. As we remove heavy S glass it is replaced by Carbon as a function to both the hoop and the stiffness not just as a stiffener and not to speed recoil.

Results; a better pole to jump correctly with and one that will work within the double pendulum system.
We admit if you have learned bad habits from such a pole mentioned above such as having to hold higher than you can jump, forced to drive to the back of the box to squash really big poles or riding them up to get off at your handgrip, you will need to learn to vault before you can effectively jump on an ESSX. If you have not developed these habits over a long period of time ESSX poles will help you to jump higher as you develop correct jumping habits

(Most recently our competitor has added a carbon sail that has carbon going in 2 directions on top of each other; we are not sold on that idea, as poles can explode from enterdelamination which can occur with in a certain time period. They may be striving for a pole with an expiration date on it soon when they discover this!
This is my personal opinion based on similar test we have run and to give them credit they may have kept this in mind and may have done something to resolve it. AS I have not personally seen one of their new poles!)Bruce Caldwell

USMC Vaulter · Unread postby **USMC Vaulter** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:32 pm

Obviously....

In all seriousness though - thanks for the responces. I was really curious and have just learned more about carbon poles than I probably ever thought I would. I'll make sure I keep all of those things in mind when purchasing poles in the future. - Thanks again.

Bruce Caldwell · Unread postby **Bruce Caldwell** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:20 pm

OK OK thanks for the emails and phone calls on this matter
SO you want proof here is my proof!!!

COACH stand to the side of your vaulter
watch the pole bend low after the plant and watch how hard it is to bend the pole over when it is so straight. See how your vaulter is in the bucket and has trouble getting out of this and up into a proper pull turn?

Moving to a shorter pole can help this to work better. By moving the handgrip closer to the end of the pole on the other brand. This is so much easier to facilitate on an ESSX pole.

BUT please BEWARE do not buy the poles in 2.2lbs increments like we offer, as confidence bends poles and once your vaulter gets this comfort level of confidence on an ESSX pole they will start jumping high and move through poles very fast.

vaulter870 · Unread postby **vaulter870** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:33 pm

this is true essx poles are smooth but you do go through a series quickly

Bruce Caldwell · Unread postby **Bruce Caldwell** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:17 pm

vaulter870 wrote:this is true essx poles are smooth but you do go through a series quickly

Would you say that moving through a series fast is also improving fast as you need stiffer poles? :yes:

jhesch · Unread postby **jhesch** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:04 pm

I would agree with that statement.

Unread postby **rainbowgirl28** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:22 pm

ESSX wrote:(Most recently our competitor has added a carbon sail that has carbon going in 2 directions on top of each other; we are not sold on that idea, as poles can explode from enterdelamination which can occur with in a certain time period. They may be striving for a pole with an expiration date on it soon when they discover this!
This is my personal opinion based on similar test we have run and to give them credit they may have kept this in mind and may have done something to resolve it. AS I have not personally seen one of their new poles!)Bruce Caldwell

They've been testing these poles for over 3 years and have not had any kind of problem with them. Many of the top vaulters in the world are jumping on them now and have had no problems.

I am not sure what "enterdelamination" is, but they have definitely had any problems with any kind of delamination.

The only pole I've ever seen with any kind of delamination was an expiremental pole that an elite vaulter made for himself.

Bruce Caldwell · Unread postby **Bruce Caldwell** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:46 pm

I am sure they have tested them and my test cannot be compared to what they have done as I have not seen or looked at any of the new POles.
I can only relate and state as I did what we have found.

Interdelamination is when carbon just like a pencil lead is glued to itself
and bound by a wrap the wrap holds togeather but the two carbon pieces are working against each other as they torgue in differrent directions.
The resin or glue to hold and support this may not after time and the inside lets go but the outside holds. If the outside cannot with stand the load then the part will blow up, Not break Blowup :crying:

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