Weighing vaulters....

[VaultPurple]

Never going to happen... And would be impossible to do as you recommend.

The weight rating is just a guideline in high school because of the lack of experienced coaches and overwhelming amount of idiotic high schoolers.

How much you weight has little to do with what weight pole you can use. It is a combination of speed and weight.

But no judge can tell a vaulter that they can not use a pole because they are not jumping deep enough with it. That is what the standard rule is. If they cant get over a bar at 15in then you move down a pole or no height.

How could a judge tell a athlete they are not allowed to use a pole because it is too big or too small, if they fall under its weight rating. The judge probably has never seen the kid jump before, and there are more things that keep someone from making it to the white area than just weight. That could be the kids 'small' pole for all the judge knows and he is just doing something wrong like putting his hands up too late or his steps are off, something he could easily change by the next jump.

I know meets where I would start off with poles close to my weight and barely make it into the pit in warm ups, and by the end of the meet I'm jumping with the standards over 30inches with a pole 40 pounds over my weight.

...just my .02....

[rainbowgirl28]

It's a good idea but it will never happen because of the liability potential in lawsuits for a person using a pole under their weight, now that that standard has been set, it would be hard to undo it.

The intent of the rule is for vaulters to use shorter poles rated at or above their weight. If kids can't make it in the pit they need to be holding lower. Most HS coaches are overly optimistic about how long of a pole their kids are ready for.

[MattM]

Honestly I'm scared to think how many high school vaulters would get on a pole far too small for them. When people get into high school, it's all about height, height, height. This makes people want to bend a pole prematurely, when they're flat out not ready to do so. This irrationality is what's going to end up getting kids hurt, and it's going to mess their vault up. Without the weight rule, I can imagine tons of kids jumping into low weighted poles to bend them, when instead they should be focusing on other things.

Sure, right now there are the people who ignore the weight rule anyways and because of that, in a meet they end up coming short. But suspending the weight rule would be like giving a burglar your stuff so that he won't rob you.

[drcurran]

I know HS pole vaulting is a world apart ( in many ways) from College vaulting, but. . . . . we don't have this issue at the college level. I feel the only reason for weighing vaulters (if your area does this) and coaches having to sign off on a verfication form is to transfer legal responsibility to someone other than National Federation, or your own state organization. I think HS have to stop worrying about what pole an athlete is jumping on and spend more time checking if the stitching on the athletes uniform is in a contrasting color, or that any rubber bands in the hair are all the same color.

Dan

[joebro391]

Alright, call me mean, but from my experience with high school vaulters, and SOME college vaulters, if a vaulter is not good enough to get into the pit, on a pole that is at least matches their weight, they shouldn't attempt to be a pole vaulter. Now for beginners, this is different. I guarantee that NONE OF US were on pole above our weight in the beginning of our journey, however, it is my opinion, until a vaulter is ready to move a pole of equal or greater weight of themselves, they are not ready for competition anyway, so it's moot point. I have seen so many vaulters illegally jump on poles beneath their weight in high school and risk their safety as well as the safety of the spectators and officials around them, and watched a few poles breaks in the process.

In college it's different (I don't think it should be), however, it is still very rare to see a male pole vaulter on a pole rated beneath his weight, even on the D3 level [from what I have seen, but only being on the college scene for an indoor season, I'm sure I haven't seen everything (obviously)]. I do, however know plenty of girls that vault on poles beneath their weight in practice and struggle to get on poles at or above their weight in competition...I've never chimed in on the safe-pit discussions before but it's honestly a waste to bother at the college level when you can't even get on a pole at your own weight. For safty and competitive reasons; and that's my stand. -6P

PS: after some flashbacks to my early high school career, i remembered that I've always been on a pole over my weight

[KirkB]

... if a vaulter is not good enough to get into the pit, on a pole that is at least matches their weight, they shouldn't attempt to be a pole vaulter. Now for beginners, this is different. ...

I like the idea of ensuring that crazy HS vaulters don't get on poles that are so soft that they break them ... or catapult them out of the pit. But I DON'T like the idea that just-as-crazy vaulters try to get on poles that are so stiff for them that they stall out ... and fall in the box. Worse yet ... the weight rule is forcing some perfectly sane ... but rookie-ish ... vaulters onto poles that are too heavy for them.

The NFHS has "solved" the first problem ... at the peril of the second problem!

If we back up a minute ... we will recall that matching a weight rating to a particular pole stiffness orginated not too long after the advent of the fiber pole. I don't know who invented the "weight" system ... but it was certainly used in the early 1960s. My first pole was a 150 pound Thermoflex beauty ... bought for $50 in 1965!

It was better than no system at all ... at least it gave vaulters, coaches, and ADs a VAGUE idea as to what size pole to buy ... without that rough guidance, we wouldn't have had a clue. Herb Jenks' flex system was an improvement over imperial weights in 5 pound increments. This was still long before the NFHS came up with the "weight rule". But the NFHS weight rule is only a baby step improvement over matching body weights to pole flexes ... a system that's over 40 years old ... maybe too little, too late!

The problem that I have with the weight rule is that it's still very, very ROUGH. I acknowledge that setting a max grip on a pole is an improvement over JUST a weight rating, but ...

What about the athlete's speed? What about his height? What about his grip? What about his technique? What about his PR? What about WHERE HE'S LANDING IN THE PIT (which was already discussed on this thread)? What about his/her sex? To take this to the extreme ... what about body fat %? A chubby 150 pound female isn't going to bend the pole like a svelt 150 pound male.

Can we REALLY boil the formula down to just a max weight with a max grip? It just seems to be too "one-size-fits-all" to me!

A really fast, short, svelt vaulter can still fly off the back (or side) of the pit ... on a pole that passes the weight rule!

Let's use 6P as an example. 6P, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that you're about 140, and you use (among other poles) a 14' 170 pole. So what would happen if you used a 140 pound pole ... from a long run ... and you were still in HS? Perfectly legal ... but could you ... or would you ... blow over the entire pit? Probably! If you didn't break the bloody pole! So how does the HS weight rule protect you from injury? ... it DOESN'T!

You may argue that 6P is an intermediate vaulter now ... not a rookie ... so this is a bad example. But I've seen lots of strong, fast, athletic football players pick up a pole ... a perfectly legal pole for their weight ... and try to bend the hell out of it! These are the "crazies" that the rule is supposedly designed to protect ... but some of these guys are so strong and fast that they just WILD ... no matter what size the pole!

And back to my main argument ... what about the danger of being "forced" to use TOO STIFF of a pole? The easy answer to this is to just drop your grip, but it ain't that easy.

Lastly ... it seems to me that the MANUFACTURERS are the ones deciding the fate of the vaulters ... and the precision of the weight rule. Shouldn't the NFHS be doing independent testing and independent calibrations? Particularly when a 150 pound pole from one mfr is NOT quite the same as a 150 pole from another mfr! Seems to me that mfrs might be inclined to lower the weight ratings of their poles ... just a tad ... to gain market share. Altho I'm sure that all mfrs are credible and honest, they do compete with each other. I'm just suggesting that they shouldn't be the decision-makers that cause a particular pole to be accepted or rejected in a meet ... putting Johnny out of the competition becuz he's still a rookie.

What's the right answer? I don't really know ... this post is only intended to bring some of the PROBLEMS into focus ... for further discussion. After all ... if we don't really understand the PROBLEM, then how can we reach the right solution?

Kirk

[Vaultref]

To AVC Coach.. this weight rule has been in the books since 1995!.. No vaulter should have been using a pole rated higher than his/her weight since then..

I'm sure you meant ...a pole lower than his/her weight... Yes?

Yep, I sure kicked that one.. thanks for posting a correction.

[Thats.What.She.Said]

Kirk you raise a valid point, but the thing is, it would be near impossible to make/enforce a rule the makes everything 100% fool proof safe. The rule is aimed at high school, where most pole vaulters get their start. By the time athletes get to college, they have basically figured out what sport (if any) is theirs, this means that the pole vaulters have already figured themselves out, and the other trackies have figured out that they aren't a pole vaulter. Sure there may be that small percentage that still would really like to try pole vault, but they also aren't the bonehead football players, they more than likely know the best way to go about trying pole vault if it is actually possible for them to attempt.

Now, back to high school, not every school has access to a coach that knows a lot, or even anything about the vault. So, if you have a school like mine where we have coaches that are certified so that we can have it but don't know ANYTHING, the coaches aren't very involved in the teaching of it all. This means that we need to have some means of keeping things relatively safe anytime someone walks over to us and decides that they want to try pole vault. Sure they may end up crushing a pole that is supposed to be weighted properly for them, but what if they had picked up an even smaller pole?? We don't have a coach with the ability to gage these things for us, so rules like the weight rating help steer us in the right direction. And it also gives an actual number and reason to point to when one of those boneheaded guys tries to pick up one of my poles (a 12' 120 for example) to use as to why they cant use it.

Sure the weight rating rule isn't 100% fool proof, but it does help in eliminating a lot of possible injuries due to people that think that this sport is called pole bending.

Also, do you believe that every athlete should be analyzed before meets to find out if the pole is right for them? You know, finding out things like their speed, % fat, skill level...

[Vaultref]

[quote="pickerbuzz...
I have seen too many vaulters come up short because of too large of pole. Also, I don't want to train a bunch of stiff polers just to satisfy the weight rule...

Let me know what you think???[/quote]

I'm not a coach.. but using a shorter, weight appropriate pole sure looks like the answer to using a too large of a pole. Am I missing your point? I don't think I am.

I have a good friend.. who several years ago while the weight enforcement rule was in affect, would have taken a bath in the courts if it wasn't for the proper enforcement of the weight certification by the PV officials at the time of the incident.. He wasn't even at the vault, but that doesn't stop the lets sue the every one insight philosophy when some gets hurt as a result of stupidity.
It has happen before.... it will happen again... its not going to happen to me as I'll see to that.

Hey please, get the rule changed to what ever you and others think is OK.... but just make sure that at the same time you get a nation wide rock solid law that will state that all libability can never, EVER fall on the officials nor their associations. An for that matter never fall on the backs of the non-certified volunteers who are called on to run the event.

[Vaultref]

Vaultref,
...
Maybe you can give me an idea how this rule came about. What was the reationale behind it?

according to the 95 back matter...
"the committee concluded that the utilization by vaulters of poles that are not appropriate for the individual's weight may increase the possibility for injury"
Further on in the back matter it is stated
"since the inception of the fiberglass pole, manufacturers have indicated that vaulters should not use poles rated below their body weight. In the opinion of the committee, there has been an increasing tendency to use softer poles (poles rated below their body weight) which may increase the potential for injury."

My guess would be the pole manufacturers had a lot to do with the rule changes that occurred in 1995. I would therefore think, they would have a lot of influence on any changes that someone might submit to alter this rule.

[KirkB]

... Sure the weight rating rule isn't 100% fool proof, but it does help in eliminating a lot of possible injuries due to people that think that this sport is called pole bending. ...

I agree that the weight rule is better than nothing ... in fact it's MORE than 50% fool proof ... if you want to put a number on it ... but I'm just looking for something better. After over 40 years of simply matching body weight to pole "size" (weight), the only improvement that I see is the max grip band. Just looking ... and wishing ... for something better.

... do you believe that every athlete should be analyzed before meets to find out if the pole is right for them? You know, finding out things like their speed, % fat, skill level ...

No, that wasn't my point. I was merely trying to show how far short from that "100% fool proof" safety system the current system is.

I think the officials need more clout ... to disqualify a vaulter that's vaulting unsafely. Maybe a 3 strikes and you're out rule ... so if you miss the PLZ 3 times ... including in warmups ... you're out.

Just something to protect the crazy vaulters ... and their crazy (or unknowledgeable) coaches ... from themselves.

Don't jump on me about this single suggested solution ... it's just one of many ideas. We should explore them all!

Kirk

[KirkB]

... using a shorter, weight appropriate pole sure looks like the answer to using a too large of a pole. Am I missing your point? I don't think I am.

I agree with the spirit of "don't hold too high on too soft of a pole" ... but (a) it penalizes rookies ... who AREN'T PERMITED to use a pole lower than their weight ... even tho they don't have a chance in hell of breaking it or catapulting out of the pit with it ... and (b) it does nothing to address the issue of stallouts ... other than saying "grip lower". If a rookie is forced to grip too low, then he may be forced to straight-poling. While it's not such a bad idea in TRAINING to learn how to straight-pole, it's a distinct disadvantage in a COMPETITION ... for what? In competition, I think it's good to encourage SOME bend ... and give the rookie the thrill of fiberglass vaulting. Once they get a taste of that thrill, they'll train harder and have more time to eventually (before season's end) bend a "regulation" pole for their body weight ... or whatever the criteria might be.

I'm sure you could have "straight-poling only" competitions ... but really ... how much fun would that be? If straight-poling is so much fun, why AREN'T more vaulters doing it in competition? I rest my case.

... get the rule changed to what ever you and others think is OK.... but just make sure that at the same time you get a nation wide rock solid law that will state that all libability can never, EVER fall on the officials nor their associations. An for that matter never fall on the backs of the non-certified volunteers who are called on to run the event.

The challenge is to find and enforce a rule that's not so subjective that it's unenforceable ... or enforced incorrectly. That's why the present weight rule isn't half-bad ... it's not very subjective. But the fact that coaches and vaulters seem to be constantly bending the rules ... and some officials for that matter (I presume) ... is an indication that the rule isn't quite as optimal as it's cracked up to be.

It's tough enough to find good coaching at the HS level. I think that's why PV programs are "spotty" across the country. But it's even tougher to try to match pole sizes to vaulters. It's an expensive sport ... so it's too bad that a vaulter that's over-bending can't just shorten his run ... which suddenly makes a dangerous pole into a perfectly safe pole! Where's the justice in disallowing the pole no matter what the vaulters speed is on takeoff?

You know ... if I had my druthers ... I'd rather have a rule enforcing standards set at 80 ... no more, no less ... than having a pole rating rule. That solves the under-bending issue ... but not the over-bending issue.

To prevent over-bending, I'd like to see a make called a miss if the vaulter doesn't land with at least ONE part of his body in the PLZ (to prevent over-shooting, or going off to the side). Just thinking out loud. I'm sure there's many other ways to slice and dice this. Actually, this is almost exactly what pickerbuzz suggested. I like it!

Kirk